I actually think this might be the best example of any team or owner brainwashing a fan base.

At least Branch Rickey had the balls to admit what he did to Ralph Kiner.  Everyone in the Tribune Tower who took part in that mess should be ashamed of themselves.

Oh, bloody ‘ell.  Excellent work, FY. (dying laughing)

I’ll post this on the sidebar later today.  Suburban Kid has a post coming up shortly after 5 and I’ll add it to the page.  All of these posts today are on the same page for future reference.  Thanks to everyone!

http://www.anothercubsblog.net/index.php/site/sosa/

Al will ban you when he’ good and ready. Post something about a picnic. He likes that. He also prefers macaroni salad to coleslaw.

Phil Rogers being interviewed about Sosa on ESPN 1000 right now

Rogers actually trying to stick up for Sammy. Says he doesn’t hold what happened to Sammy in Congress agaisnt him.  Says without proof, it’s not fair to say Sammy used and not vote for him on that account.  Says there’s no real standard, so the HOF needs to inform the BBWAA how to handle the steroid era.  Says he’s sure that no guy that has a positive test or has definitive proof that he did will ever make it in.  And he says Sammy will get lumped in with that crowd.

And Harry Teinowitz just compared Sammy Sosa to Drew Peterson.  He compared a baseball player to a philandering wife beater who likely murdered two of his wives.  These people need to be tarred and feathered.

. . .

(1) Maddux. Not the body type or velocity to be suspicious, and too respectful of the game to have done it anyway. If he turns out to have done it, then I won’t believe anyone is clean.

(2) Pedro. Got injured a fair bit and played with other users. But its hard to believe a guy with that frame was on steroids. He had none of the classic bulk you would expect a steroid user like Neifi Perez, Sergio Mitre, and Matt Lawton to have.

. . .

by Orval Overall on Jun 4, 2009 1:55 PM CDT   up   reply   0 recs

These guys couldn’t possibly be so insufferable in person, could they? How the fuck does this imbecile know about Maddux’s respect for the game. Shut the fuck up you fucking pathetic lunatic.

And Harry Teinowitz just compared Sammy Sosa to Drew Peterson.  He compared a baseball player to a philandering wife beater who likely murdered two of his wives.  These people need to be tarred and feathered.

I don’t know that would take a vat of tar and a whole flock of birds to tar and feather Harry. You wouldn’t have any left over for Alvin, BLou, SWL, and KOW. Although, with KOW you really might just want to fill lake Michigan. At least then you have a chance of tarring part of her enormity.

Rogers actually trying to stick up for Sammy.

as they say in wisonsin: “well I’ll be go to hell.” i’m shocked that a writer actually wasn’t all over sammy. 

And Harry Teinowitz just compared Sammy Sosa to Drew Peterson.

that seems completely inappropriate.

and he just guaranteed that i will never ever turn on any radio show that allows him to have a microphone. (word on the street is the show he’s on now will go away soon enough.) if he doesn’t get another radio gig, the radio will be a better place. what a fucking idiot.

Serial killers cheat their victims out of their lives.  Sammy Sosa cheated baseball.  Sammy Sosa is equal to a serial killer.  Duh.

actions   0 recs
Watching Cubs fans this year

…is like watching a lab experiment to prove the existence of confirmation bias.

by Wreckard on Jun 4, 2009 3:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs
Drew,

I think Milton forgot to bring the coleslaw and nothing makes Alvin angrier than when somebody forgets the coleslaw. Nothing except when someone forgets his tossed Macaroni salad

by Madlarkin on Jun 4, 2009 5:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs
I’m tiring of him as well…

whoa, now there’s some quality shit i’m gonna point out before alvin removes it.  I mentioned the picnic to wreckard earlier (although lower) in that thread when he didn’t know who KOW was.

KOW?

Ouch. Low blow.

by Wreckard on Jun 3, 2009 10:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs
her former screen name was:

kerry’sotherwife . She did fun stuff like arrange community picnics.  by philadelphiacub on Jun 4, 2009 4:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   actions actions   0 recs

Serial killers cheat their victims out of their lives.  Sammy Sosa cheated baseball.  Sammy Sosa is equal to a serial killer.  Duh.

You know, he almost went there, but he did try this one:

P1: All cheaters engage in all forms of cheating
P2: Corking your bat is cheating
P3: Taking steroids is cheating
C: Since Sammy corked his bat, Sammy took steroids.

Now he didn’t put it in a syllogism like that, but he made that exact “argument.”  This fat, whimpering failed child star Cub fan is everything that is wrong with Cub fans in one person.

Based on what evidence?

People took greenies and they didn’t improve performance. This is honestly the most fucking asinine conversation I’ve ever had. Here’s a sample of how it sounds.
me: evidence, evidence, statistical proof, scientific research
you: nuh uh!!! They wouldn’t do it if it didn’t help!!!
me: more evidence, more proof, more studies, more opinions by in depth scientific and statistical minds.
you: nope, I’m right because I’m right. All your facts are made up. They wouldn’t do it if it didn’t help them. I have no evidence, but I’m right! Oh wait, I have pictures their arms are bigger, then they got smaller after testing!
me: as you can see from Mr Walker’s website upper body mass doesn’t really help hitting due to the fact that your arms are simply carrying the force from your lower body into the baseball.
you: Not possible!! Bonds can’t hit 73 HRs, STEROIDS, STERODIS!!!
me: A study at U of Rohode Island done on baseballs from 1995 and 2000 bounce an average of 33% higher than those made in 1989, 1970, and 1963. Also UPenn studies on balls available form 1998 including McGwire’s 70th HR ball showed a rubber ring inside the ball that the people at UPenn concluded definitely improved the distance a ball could fly.
you: nuh uh!! stuffs fingers in ears lalallalala

You really don’t want to believe this do you. Just go read the site I linked for yourself. Eric Walker isn’t a nobody either. The man has been working with statistics and baseball for a hell long time.

1. Even if you took steroids the distribution is something like 3:1 or 4:1 in terms of muscle mass built on upper body vs. lower body when taking steroids.
# increase muscle mass and upper-body strength . . . . The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men. N Engl J Med 1996; 335: 1-7, Bhasin S, Storer TW, Berman N, et al.

#
deposition promoted by testosterone tends to be greater in the upper body; this provides the greatest effects (and therefore the greatest likelihood of abuse) for sports like swimming, which rely on upper-body strength. Buzzed: The Straight Facts about the Most Used and Abused Drugs, Cynthia Kuhn, Scott Swartzwelder, Wilkie Wilson (Duke University Medical Center)

#
Testosterone also produces characteristic body changes, Dr. Pope said, with the most marked muscle growth in the upper body and the biceps. Psychology: Concepts and Connections, Spencer A. Rathus

  Kochakian discovered early in his experiments that not all skeletal muscle responds to anabolic steroids equally. When he administered anabolic steroids to androgen-deficient guinea pigs, he found the predominant effect to be on upper-body muscles in the region of the shoulder girdle. . . . what Kochakian observed is consistent with the stereotypical body shape of normally virilized men . . . . In a study with a small number of men receiving testosterone or nandrolone injections for six weeks, we also found the main increases in body circumference in the shoulders and chest (Friedl, Dettori, Hannan, Patience, & Plymate, 1991).

I’m sure you can wish away these peoples evidence too right?

In reality, I don’t know why players continue to use steroids nor how many do. You shouldn’t assume a ton were/are using without facts, but even if we assume they are taking steroids (or pretty much all of them are) you can’t prove it can help you greatly. I can provide ample evidence that it doesn’t.

by Madlarkin on Jun 4, 2009 1:52 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I certainly doubt the second sentence. Unless you haven’t read below.

As for the rest of it, it goes more like:

You: Write something ridiculously long that no person here will ever read, citing the one “expert” study to find that steroids had no impact.

Me: Seems kind of incredible that ballplayers would use them without a benefit, and equally strange that some of the ones who did (Bonds, Clemens) had incredible late career surges that somehow had nothing to do with their coincidental steroid use.

If that provokes more profanity and another 5,000 word response so be it. It just isnt credible to say they have no effect when they are used this extensively by players who used them to try and get an edge.

And candidly, your pre-packaged posts sound a little contrived, like you’ve had this debate before and have some stake in its outcome. I’m not here to cite some competing expert report back to you. Ive been in enough courtrooms to know people with an agenda can usually find an expert to support their side. The clear fact is that the players — hundreds of them, whether they used or not — believe steroids had an upward effect on performance, and I’ll believe them over your ‘expert’ any day of the week. You want stats for that? How about the Congressional study that found 79% of ballplayers thought exactly this point.

“In a Feb. 17-March 9 survey of 568 players, 79% said they believed steroids played some role in record-breaking performances by high-profile players. And 27% said they believed the illegal performance-enhancing drugs were a “major contributor” to recent statistical achievements.”

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-03-15-steroids-mlb-cover_x.htm

by Orval Overall on Jun 4, 2009 2:13 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Players believe it?

Who cares?

If you’ve had this debate, you’ve lost. Erik Walker sites numerous respected doctors and scientists while you have a U.S. today opinion poll. Walker worked for A’s

What evidence do you have that they help you?
I have evidence that it doesn’t help out lower body muscle mass. You haven’t answered that.

I have evidence that the ball was altered at least 3 separate times in the last 60 years. You haven’t answered that.

I have evidence that lower body mass is the driving force behind power hitting. You haven’t answered that.

The only thin you have is that players think it works therefore it does. That’s an interesting little quip, but it doesn’t come close to answering the evidence that it doesn’t help.

It’s a fallacy to believe that because there is a belief in something that makes it objectively true in face of all evidence.

Just a bit about walker in case you think he’s still a hack:

Eric Walker has been a baseball statistical analyst for 30 years. For many of those, he was a freelance baseball radio reporter; working in a two-team market, he covered a full 162 games every year. At one time he had a daily 5-minute baseball “module” syndicated to 20 National Public Radio affiliates nationwide.

In addition to reporting and writing, Walker long served as a player-personnel consultant to major-league ball clubs, most notably with Sandy Alderson and Billy Beane of the Oakland A’s, as recounted in Michael Lewis’s book Moneyball and at greater length in Alan Schwarz’s book The Numbers Game, where he is credited with being the catalyst that initiated the moneyball-style analytic revolution at the A’s

by Madlarkin on Jun 4, 2009 2:23 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pre packaged

you better believe it is.

I wrote it once and saved it. I mean every word I said though. I do have vested interest in the outcome of the debate. I don’t want to see my favorite sport and the people who play it crucified for something that is just blatantly untrue.

Blame the players for breaking the law, blame them for trying to cheat, I don’t condone steroid use in anyway. In fact, because steroids are pretty ineffectual for hitters I see no reason why people should be taking them at all. I just think that if your going to be mad about anything it should be about the fact that these players are breaking the law and getting away with it, not that they are breaking some meaningless records.

by Madlarkin on Jun 4, 2009 2:35 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i.e. don’t blame them for successfully cheating when they fail to gain an advantage.

by Madlarkin on Jun 4, 2009 2:36 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Evidence

“It’s a fallacy to believe that because there is a belief in something that makes it objectively true in face of all evidence.”

All evidence, of course, would include that one guy who used roids hit 73 HR in a season and another who used roids was throwing 95+ heat well into his 40’s after being far below that in his early 30s. Not that any of that suggests steroids had an impact on performance (oh wait, yes it does).

Oh right, I forgot, juiced ball and some such.

by Orval Overall on Jun 4, 2009 2:58 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sir, listen to my argument.

It has a negligble effect on HITTERS!!! BATTING POWER. I have no idea what it does for pitchers

  a season and another who used roids was throwing 95+ heat well into his 40’s after being far below that in his early 30s.

It could be a miracle drug for pitchers, but all I know from what I’ve read is that the idea that it helps hitters hit is ridiculous. The ball flies 33% farther than it did in the 60s 70s and 80s due to it’s composition. The rubber ring in side the ball in 1998? I don’t know. I never claimed steroids didn’t help with recovery time or longevity. Evidence suggests that it is very possible that it increases longevity.

Again Bonds could be the worst person in the world, but his talent should be recognized as not a product of BALCO, but as his talent.

Coleslaw, it’s what’s for Picnic.

by Madlarkin on Jun 4, 2009 3:11 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is brain damage a pre-requisite a BTI?

Also he’s not removing my comment without me getting a screen cap =P.

that is priceless fy! well played.

there really should be a website that dedicates itself to the dumb things said on chicago sports talk.

It would cost a lot of money to have that much server space.